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More Stuff on Money... and Where God Seems to be Leading us All! As I mentioned yesterday, I really had a strong sense that God was wanting to "sow" something into the DNA of our churches with regard to money. I think he sees the stranglehold this alternative god is having on our western world - and he's declaring that his people will live an alternative way. The kingdom way. Through the Spirit's strength, we simple churchers determined yesterday that we were going to seek together to live this alternative way. As I said at the end of my talk yesterday: God has instituted a KINGDOM that turns every realm Imagine what God will do through this little band of people as we live for the fulfillment of this dream? The potential of it all is incredible. At its base level it will literally mean life over death. What is cool about it all is that we're already beginning to live it out and see the potential at hand - as Jason reported yesterday the amount we already have for the care of the needy in our world is astounding. So what is next? Secondly, in the months ahead, we're going to be meeting with each church to hear where your heart is resonating both locally and globally. The idea here is to "surface" where God's Spirit is already at work in his church. Based on what is "surfaced", decisions can then be made for what God wants us to support locally and globally as a network. The goal here is simply to join in with where God is already moving in all of us. No doubt all of this will have huge implications beyond just money. It will also help guide us in where we serve and pray as a whole network. These are exciting times. Lets pray, pray, pray! Any questions or concerns on any of it... please let me know. Now For Some Resources... Some of you are students and are interested in doing a little more research on all of this. Allow me to suggest a few things for you to review: Irresistible Revolution by Shane Claibourne. Great starter book. Filled with great stories. Covers more then just money, but it provides a great picture of someone living a different way. It also poses some really important questions. Both Jolie and I have loved reading this book. Rich Christians in an Age of Hunger by Ronald Sider This one has been around now for 25 years. It is now in its 5th reprint and has sold over 400,000 copies. Point: its been tested and found to be an important book. It really is. I've read it over the past few weeks and have found it to be so good. It is theologically very sound and it serves up an important challenge. Embezzlement: The Corporate Sin of Christianity?? by Ray Mayhew This was a paper I found through reading the Irresistible Revolution. Don't let the title scare you... it's a good read. It's written by a pastor in an American mega-church. The premise of the paper is that much has been written on how the individual is to handle their money - but next to nothing has been written on how the church is to handle its money. His concern is that because of this, the church is often failing to live our God's plan for its finances. I really loved this paper. It's such an important read for us at this season of life. As with everything, you might not agree with all the conclusions but I think that he provides a world of help for the church. Finally, I've also attached the notes from my talk last night. We'll also post the audio but the notes are more thorough with the scripture references.
 anon...why?Submitted by davej on Wed, 2007-02-14 23:18.
weird..that posted as anon but my signature was on it when i posted it.. the land of the rising Son  O dear....this IS a challenge...Submitted by Terry on Wed, 2007-01-31 17:00.
Embezzlement: The Corporate Sin of Christianity?? Also, does this mean that I should spend my money as if it were someone else's by right? This would likely change what I buy and what I do. I would lik to use it to break down the margins, the classes, the steroetypes, however. What about that stuff I'm entitled to because I've worked so hard to get it? It's a hard stance to take. Difficult stuff. It's worth stuggling with though. The hard stuff usually is.  Preach it brother!Submitted by Scott on Wed, 2007-01-31 09:33.
Andy, Thanks so much for your message Sunday. Dana and I had to duck out early so we didn't get a chance to talk (also, now you know it wasn't a staged protest 'walk-out'). For Dana and I the talk pressed us in a few different ways: 1)It's so encouraging to be a part of a church where such a counter-cultural message can be brought to the body. Thanks for being so honest to the call God placed on your heart; 2) Even in our (relatively) non-rich state, Dana and I have so much to work on in this area. We have been striving on this for a while, but even small changes seem to take so much work. Materialism is so deep in us; 3) We felt convicted to be careful not to become self-righteous judges of those who are wealthy. It's easy for us to criticize the choices of others when we never have to make those choices (ie- should I buy a BMW, a Mercedes, or a Pinto?). We feel blessed by the simplicity our finances force upon us and our prayer is that we will remember the lessons we learned when we are making more. Also, I think it's important to remember to love our friends and family to change, rather than to judge (an obvious point, but important too). All that being said, Dana and I would be interested in pursuing this issue further. Whether that takes place in our church from week to week, or in a more focused financial accountability group I don't know. I was wondering if you had any thoughts on how we can partner with those upon whose hearts this issue is heavy to hold each other to account? Peace and love, Since you asked...Submitted by andy on Sat, 2007-02-03 15:40.
Hey Scott... thanks to you and the rest for interacting with this post and last Sunday's teaching. Prior to delivering that word, I felt a strong peace in my Spirit that it was already "yes and amen" in the church's heart. Still, I felt it needed to be spoken out in order to focus our collective hearts in this direction that I believe the Spirit is leading us. Let me see if I can respond to your points in like order: 1) If there is one thing the Lord has taught me over the past years its that at the core of this discipleship journey comes a call to first and foremost act in faithfulness to God's leading. The "fear of the Lord" the stands above our fear of each other. At times this is extremely difficult to walk out in a community, and at times I do fail. But as one that is serving in your midst, my heart will continue to be to act in faithfulness to God - even in moments where I know the reprisal might be negative. We must all seek to serve the Lord above all else. 2) Oh, don't Jolie and I know this. And isn't it amazing how these changes are met with such disdain - even from those in the body of faith? Why is it so difficult? Because we are waring against not just a thing - but a spiritul force. Money, or at least our worlds response to it, is governed by an alternative God. It is a stronghold in our world and when we seek to walk away from that stronghold - all the forces of hell will rise up to keep us in chains. By the Spirit's strength, might we keep walking. Let joy be your governor Scot. Just keep joyfully walking in a new direction. 3) Judgementalism - don't I know this! How easy it is for us to live in judgement of others. I was going to bring this up on Sunday but I forgot. I'm glad you have brought it up here. And I love your words about love. One of the dangers or dark sides of a movement into justice is that we can become bound up in other chains as we seek to pursue righteousness. As Carlene pointed out, how easy it would be for us to become legalistic, burden bearing, judges of others. But this is not the right appraoch... rather we let love and joy and peace and the fruit of the Spirit be our guides. I suppose the tension is this: lets be clear about what is wrong in the world, but as we answer that injustice lets do so by the laws of the kingdom of God. Lets be people of great love, mercy and hope... knowing how desperate we too are in need of such things and knowing how lavishly they are provided in the kingdom of God. Any thoughts about how you can partner and hold each other to account? Sure. Begin small. Pray and maybe ask one or two others into your life to help guide your decisions. Have them over for dinner, explain your heart... and then be vulnerable. Get into the nittty gritty. Tell them your hang-ups ans struggles in this regard... tell them the actual strongholds that exist in how you live and spend... and ask for their help. I suppose, in short, it always begins and ends in relatioshps of love and disclosure. Happy journeys. A  more love.Submitted by kristi on Tue, 2007-01-30 14:30.
thanks for this, andy. and the note about church on sunday. irresistible revolution is such an amazing book! it really got me thinking/evaluating... which i am so desperate to turn into action. i am so glad that "money stuff" is on others' minds, too. i know know know there's an "alternative way" [which shane claibourne shows so well]! and it's encouraging to know that it is on other's hearts and minds, too. i read this article the other day that really challenges me: "Love of brother means voluntary poverty, stripping one's self, putting off the old man, denying one's self, etc. It also means non-participation in those comforts and luxuries which have been manufactured by the exploitation of others... And we must keep this vision in mind, recognize the truth of it, the necessity for it, even though we do not, can not, live up to it. Like perfection. We are ordered to be perfect as our heavenly Father is perfect, and we aim at it, in our intention, though in our execution we may fall short of the mark over and over. St. Paul says, it is by little and by little that we proceed... ...Of course, we are not all given the grace to do such things. This article is to call to mind the vision. It is true, indeed, that until we begin to develop a few apostles along these lines, we will have no mass conversions, no social justice, no peace. We need saints. God, give us saints. How far we all are from it! We do not even see our infirmities. Common sense tells us, "Why live in a slum? It is cheaper to live in a model housing project, have heat and hot water, a mauve or pink bath and toilet, etc. We can manage better; we have more time to pray to meditate, study... Yes, we will have more time with modern conveniences, but we will not have more love." Dorothy Day: "Poverty and Pacifism". i keep praying for more love.  Kristi, I really loveSubmitted by Teresa on Tue, 2007-01-30 21:57.
Kristi, I really love reading your thoughts. It is funny how little time there is to hear one another's hearts during a Sunday meeting. So thanks for blogging. I have to admit I am perplexed by the paragraph: It feels like this is saying some have to go hard core live on the streets and then there will be conversion. Unfortunately the rest of us aren't cut out for that kind of living...So just live as you feel lead? I think it lets us off the hook too easily. I love the money talk too. I have been pondering such things recently. I love the new perspective of giving and holding loosely. I love it that everything that I have and that I am belongs to our Lord Jesus. I love it that we just got rid of cable (unrelated tangent) I loved the idea of our church network buying a hotel or apartment building for the poor. I am not shocked by the article in the Vancouver sun that talked about all the people who bought brand new cars in Canada. I am not shocked that some high end cars dealers sold more cars in BC than any other province. I have often heard friends who have grown up else where or spent considerable time outside of vancouver talk about the materialism and race for the best stuff that is so evident here. So let's do it people. Let's push our selves out of the running and show em the Jesus way of spending and living. Teresa the Jesus way of spending & living - nice!Submitted by kristi on Thu, 2007-02-01 16:19.
hmmm... I see what you are saying about being let off the hook too easily, Teresa. I had not thought about that when I read the article. Did you read the rest of the article as well? Anyway, I had thought of it in more of an encouraging way... that this is the vision - this is the [hardcore] way of living, of following Jesus... but of course everyone lives that in a different way. I think God specifically places us in different situations and different lifestyles and different circumstances, but the vision is all the same for those who love Him. We just try to live well and we experiment with what that looks like and we trust Him. What do you think? I know I use a lot of quotes, but I think it is because I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words that are expressed as well as a lot of what I read. Anyway, I read something else on the bus this morning in geez magazine that ties in with this: "Always drawn by the possibility of a gracious, somewhat faltering movement in the general direction of truthful living. [the rest of this article is in my myspace blog if you are interested] One more thing... Teresa, you said "I loved the idea of our church network buying a hotel or apartment building for the poor." I love that! Is this something that the church has been talking about? Hi Kristi, Thanks for yourSubmitted by Teresa on Fri, 2007-02-02 23:28.
Hi Kristi, Thanks for your comments. I haven't read the whole article yet. I think that would probably have been smart before i started commenting on the quote. But I like what you said about the general idea and just trying to live well for Jesus. Today I am so struck with how Jesus is persuing me even in all my failed attempts at trying to live for him. He is the hero in the story. I feel so in love with the hero. In my mind today, I and my meager attempts to be good have decreased and almost disappeared in light of Jesus', our hero's, pursuit of us. THe idea of buying an appartment for housing the poor was one of those "end of the sermon examples" of how we could spend our church money that Andy threw out to get us thinking. It kind of stuck on me. Gregg thought it sure would be awesome to get the governement to match our financial input because this housing thing is an issue for them as well. I kind of shut that idea down thinking of everyone else who wants money from the governement. BUt today I rebuke myself and say nothing is too big for God. Teresa "Nothing is to difficult for thee..."Submitted by andy on Mon, 2007-02-05 12:50.
"...Great and mighty God, Now that that old school chorus is stuck in your mind. I too have thought about partnerships with governemnt in this. Who knows, eh? And further, who knows where the Lord will lead us with all this dreaming. Keep dreaming though. In the kingdom, with him on our side... nothing is too difficult! Something I am praying aboutSubmitted by Teresa on Mon, 2007-02-05 15:41.
Ok in the Vancouver Sun on Saturday there was a really cool article about this couple who bought one of the old boarding building in East Van. (Meaning building where people rent a room and share the bath room. THis couple bought it for 1 million and fixed it up. THe article said the fix up was mostly just paint, flooring and the bathrooms. Oh and huge amounts of garbage removal. So they are renting the rooms for $300 to $395 and have provided a library, computer room with internet access, a place to lock up bikes, a couple of patios...basically improved quality of living kind of stuff. They also provide the residents with towels. It was just so lovely. It was lovely to see an article in the sun entitled "a rare good new story" or something close to that. This couple did it without government funding and are now making a profit. Isn't that crazy. Gregg and I kept the article. My dad read it and got all excited and said he would LOVE to be involved in something like that. So anyway, that is what I am asking the Lord about. I do kind of wonder if the whole apartment thing that a number of our friends were looking into a while back might have actually been to prepare hearts for something like this??? Just wondering... Peace out friends! Teresa Generosity as the church/friendsSubmitted by Carlene on Fri, 2007-02-02 21:28.
Hi Church/Friends...I love how Chanita uses "church" interchangeably with "friends". As I think about this change in perspective in being the church rather than going to church I'm seeing a shift in accountability and responsibility on our part. From this new perspective, we can no longer refer to our church with fickle association and claim great closeness when its doing something we're proud of and distance ourselves and point fingers when we're not pleased...I feel challenged and yet hopeful. Speaking of hopeful, each of your thoughts about how to live out our faith in the area of finances has been encouraging. Ironic how I came across these blogs in the midst of working on a job application! Good to be reminded of this. Here's a little tidbit that came to mind as I pondered your thoughts this afternoon. Mark Buchanan's "The Rest of God" speaks about generosity... "The world of the generous gets larger and larger;/the world of the stingy gets smaller and smaller" (Prov. 11:24, MSG). GENEROUS PEOPLE GENERATE THINGS...More abounds with them and yet they have a greater thirst and deeper capacity to take it all in...The taproot of generosity is spiritual..."They gave themselves first to the Lord and then to us" (2Cor. 8:5). True generosity always moves in that sequence: first God, then others" This speaks to my prayer for us as a church, may we be a generous people that draws near to the Lord and generates an abundance of life-giving things. Jesus, we give you our dreams and hearts that long to give your love and blessings to others, especially those who have little. We also give you our human desires that crave more than we need and our hardness that wants to cling to our wealth. We trust you to guide and protect us in this journey. Surround us with examples to follow, openness to be held accountable, and courage to step out and lead. Lord, help us to listen and obey. |
gospel for asia
i would like to take this finance-themed post as an opportunity to direct peeps to the gospel for asia organization...they also do child sponsor type things and assistance / education programs, and they have a big native missionary movement going..
the cool thing about them is that 100% of the donation you send goes to the child or missionary you are supporting...most organizations have a much lower efficiency that gfa so support the good work they are doing...
also check out the sweet book "revolution in world missions" by the founder, k.p....peace and love from the land, dave
http://gfa.org
the land of the rising Son
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http://tengokujin.blogspot.com