Appreciated both of these articles - actually, the comments below them I found to be the best parts and the most helpful.

I must admit though, every time I read these kind of discussions, something in my stomach feels a little off. Almost like something is missing, that shouldn't be missing, because it's the main point. I think that is what you are getting at in your follow up comments.

The past day, I've been rolling it around in my mind... what is it that is off? Here is where I'm at so far.

First, I really believe that the church is desperately in need of a new "matrix of success". And I think both of these articles in both good and bad ways betray that need (it also appears they are seeking to grasp that themselves). How do we define what is successful? Is the church that has a 1000 teens coming out to it on a Saturday night, successful? Perhaps. Is the missionary that toils in "unfruitful soil" for their entire life successful? Perhaps.

How do we define success?

Here is where I'm at so far, success begins with obedience and faithfulness to the calling of God. In other words, are we being faithful to what God has asked of us in this season, in this context - regardless of how things "appear" with our human eyes? In the end, this is all that is really asked of us as followers - the results (which we normally judge our success on) are totally outside of our realm of responsibility from a biblical perspective (isn't it ironic that the very thing we are expressly told is totally in the fathers domain, is the thing that we almost totally evaluate ourselves by?). (Sorry for all the brackets)

So, the foundational factor of our success is faithfulness to God's calling. What's interesting about this, is that this depends upon "spiritual leadership." That is, it depends upon people that are rooted in prayer and understand what it is to discern the voice and direction of God. And herein lies the other place that my stomach twists on. It appears that much of the debate around models is because the mainstream evangelical church has lost the ancient pathway of discernment and has fallen into the trap of "technique" or "model". It's almost as if, "he who has the best model - wins". And I think such a notion stands outside of the heart of God and is rooted in "human wisdom".

At the end of the day, we are answerable to one thing... were we faithful to carry out what we prayerfully, in the context of community and biblical witness, discerned to be true. Were we faithful to the calling of God? Did we labour in the fields with love and prayer and in the end did we depend upon him that in his timing he would produce the harvest that he was seeking to produce.

Oh that the church could reclaim prayer-filled, long waiting seasons of discernment. Then, in acting upon that discernment that they could "rest" (not worried about what is or is not happening down the street) in what they discerned. I suppose that some of this is autobiographical. I've met with so many people wanting to plant churches over the past two years - most of them exploring if what we are doing is the "model" for them. They've read books and articles by all the latest gurus that have told them the "right way" but in the end, they have not waited upon God to release them and commission them. My heart grieves with the discussions, as again and again the conversations reveal a church that has lost its calling to wait upon the voice of the Lord.

How could we lead/establish spiritual communities apart from deep spiritual discernment? How could we do this spending hours reading books, listening to teaching... but failing to seek the voice of the Father? I wish I could say I'm being too harsh with this - but I'm not. My experience causes me to believe that much of the church has lost its ear for the Spirit and instead is operating on technique, the latest trend, the loudest, slickest voice, etc.

Sorry... it makes my heart so sad. So grieved.

I think all of this is what we see in Jesus mission. Jesus was totally faithful to only one thing, the voice of the Father. He did what the Father told him to do through the witness of the Spirit. And in the end, in Jesus case anyhow, this pathway didn't produce a lot of followers (the thousands who followed him in the very early phases of his ministry were long gone by the end - Acts 1). However, it did produce the followers that the Father needed at that point, followers upon whom he could, like yeast in a batch of dough, expand the kingdom.

I could go on... but that is enough for now. Perhaps all of this is off topic... but its where my heart went as I read.

Press on brother. You are a good man.